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    "Some researchers I spoke to..."

    Some quick, scattered thoughts will follow... I was just reading Daniel Macarthur's typcially excellent post on a new "friend genes" study that's making the headlines. It's a superb analysis of the type that science blogs excel at providing.

    But one thing irked me, and it's something that I've seen a lot in similar posts (so apologies to Daniel for singling this out; it's just a case study for a wider phenomenon). He writes, "Altshuler’s skeptical view of the paper was fairly widely shared by colleagues I discussed this with yesterday", and "The buzz amongst the genomics community on Twitter was generally similarly negative" and "Some researchers I spoke to also had specific concerns about the methods".

    I saw similar things in the wake of last year's arsenic saga. They unsettled me then and I think I've just worked out why. The problem with these phrases is that they're not particularly transparent. When professional journalists interview people for comments on a paper, they're mean to state who said what. Quotes and viewpoints are attributed to specific people, or to the journalist themselves. That's important because as a reader, I can find out more about who's providing their opinion, and I know how many people share that opinion.

    But I can't tell that from phrases like "some researchers I spoke to" or "the genomics community". For all I know, every geneticist in the world slagged off the paper. Maybe a dozen of them did. Maybe just two didn't like it. The point is that I don't know how much weight to place upon the subsequent analysis.

    Of course, it's completely understandable why this happens. Scientist bloggers are in a privileged position - they have scores of potential sources to consult, many of whom will work next door. Most of such conversations aren't recorded, and many people won't want to be quoted. So the blogger, reporting from memory, writes about what they remember while leaving out specific names.

    Still, I do think that we should perhaps aim to live up to better standards. I'm not even necessarily talking about journalistic standards (not expecting all bloggers to be journalists here), but about issues of transparency. After all, we ask people to link to primary sources, and to back up statements in opinion pieces with links. If we're calling for that, surely we should also try to make our sources clearer?

    Thoughts? This is a gut reaction so I'd be interested to know if people think I'm right or being too nitpicky. 

    • 19 January 2011
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    over 1 year ago virginiahughes responded:
    virginiahughes
    Good point (and something I'm guilty of, too). The Twitter reference would be pretty easy to correct, since whoever was negative on Twitter obviously wasn't saying things to Dan in confidence. So Dan could have linked to a few Twitter pages as evidence of the negativity...
    over 1 year ago laelaps responded:
    laelaps
    Agreed. Whenever I see someone use the line "Some researchers say..." I immediately think "Who?" (And I am sure that we are all familiar with its cousin, "Studies show...") Are those scientists friends of the writer who share similar opinions, members of the same lab, or what?

    Playing the "Some researchers say..." card seems to be a way of supporting one's own position - "All the cool kids agree!" - without having to get into specifics. They may be right or they may be wrong, but such statements ultimately do little more than reinforce the view of the person doing the writing. If you're going to go that route, why not go all the way and ask some of those researchers to comment or write a guest post or otherwise make their opinion known? Maybe they will accept, maybe they will decline, but either way I think it is a more responsible thing to do than spreading gossip that cannot be confirmed.

    over 1 year ago kwinkunks (Twitter) responded:
    Matt_blue_256px_normal
    I feel like these informal channels (Twitter, blogs, comments like this) are more like conversations than writing. Not always, but often. And we aren't afraid of a bit of rhetoric in our speech: dimly-remembered statistics quoted confidently, wild generalizations, gross over-simplification, etc). "Scientists and wikipedia editors are the worst offenders and do it over 90% of the time according to one study I read".

    The trouble is, they're written down and remembered by the Interweb for ever and ever and are probably read by more people than the average peer-reviewed article.<citation>

    So to me the question is: Do we like rhetoric in science, and think it makes things more lively and fun... or do we think it's the end of civilized and objective inquiry?

    over 1 year ago Dirk Hanson (Facebook) responded:
    In the newsprint world of trad journalism, these are often synonyms for "I think" or "In my opinion," or "My newsroom buddy agrees that..."
    over 1 year ago jgold85 (Twitter) responded:
    Jggpic_normal
    I think I agree with you in principle, but isn't there a place for anonymity in sources, just as there is for anonymity among e.g. writers? If I trust you, as a writer, then I also by extension trust that you find reliable sources, even if they prefer to remain anonymous.

    Then again, I suppose there's a difference between "Some researchers say..." and "Four individuals I spoke to, who all wish to remain anonymous, say..."

    over 1 year ago VivRaper (Twitter) responded:
    Icon_normal
    I agree with you in principle, but - realistically - most bloggers are jotting down a few scattered thoughts when they can. Searching for Twitter threads and links takes time. If you don't have that time, you're forced to rely on memory. Hence the 'some researchers say...'

    This isn't how it should be. But unpaid, part-time science bloggers are already doing a stellar job under the circumstances. They can't be expected to meet the standards of paid, full-time writers.

    over 1 year ago VivRaper (Twitter) responded:
    Icon_normal
    My husband adds that a geneticist like MacArthur is speaking as an authority, not as a journalist. "The buzz among the genomics community" is an authoritative quote by an insider - not an unsubstantiated opinion.
    over 1 year ago dgmacarthur (Twitter) responded:
    Macarthur_olduvai_profile_cropped_normal
    Hi Ed,

    There are plenty of issues to untangle here.

    Firstly, Ginny is absolutely right that I could (and should) have pointed to specific examples for the Twitter buzz; in fact I intended to hunt these down but simply forgot to do so before the post went live. I'll hopefully have time to remedy this tonight.

    Secondly, I didn't quote specific researchers because (1) my impression of this view was based on a diffuse series of conversations in corridors and via email over a span of two days, a fair portion of it occurring before I even decided to post about the article; (2) at least one of my sources asked not to be quoted; and (3) I didn't specifically ask any of the others if they could be quoted. If I'd had all of those conversations with the aim of putting a post together, I probably would have asked for quotes; but this post wasn't planned like a piece of science journalism would be.

    I'm also not sure direct quotes would actually have provided anything extra in the first contentious paragraph: this paragraph conveys my impression is that there was a general sense of skepticism among the broader community, so would one or two cherry-picked quotes really do anything to support this view?

    Finally, if the buzz among scientists had been a central point of the post, then I agree it would have been crucial to provide stronger support for it. But in fact I simply intended those opening paragraphs to explain what prompted me to look into the article more closely, not really to be a stand-alone conclusion.

    That all sounds pretty defensive, but I don't mean to say I think I did everything the right way in the post; the "Some researchers I spoke to" sentence is pretty outrageous, and should have been worded more carefully.

    over 1 year ago dgmacarthur (Twitter) responded:
    Macarthur_olduvai_profile_cropped_normal
    I realise I've replied to Ed's post on a general problem with a very specific defence of my actions - sorry, but Ed's post just made me think more carefully about why I'd behaved the way I did, and that just turned into a rambling comment.

    On a more general note: during the parallel discussion on Twitter DrugMonkey referred to this excellent post by Chris Rowan:

    http://all-geo.org/highlyallochthonous/2011/01/the-elephants-in-the-room-at-s...

    The section on "Not all bloggers want to be journalists" is highly relevant here.

    over 1 year ago praeburn (Twitter) responded:
    Author_photo__color__normal
    Agree wholeheartedly Ed. Using indefinite phrases such as "some geneticists" or "some colleagues" can be a cover for lazy reporting. It's easier to ask one or two geneticists and make a blanket pronouncement about a finding than it is to find folks who are truly authoritative and can make an informed comment--in a direct quotation. (No offense meant to any of our colleagues; I'm sure I've been guilty of this more than once or twice over the years.)

    To me, this is similar to my concern about anonymous sources and anonymous bloggers. The reader doesn't know how to evaluate such comments. In conventional journalism, we're taught to avoid anonymous sources whenever possible to avoid precisely this kind of problem. And we're taught to prohibit the use of anonymous sources for critical comments.

    If one wants to report the "buzz" in the genetics community, one should really make a pretty extensive survey of that community to be sure that it is the buzz of the community, not just of a few folks the writer happens to run into. It's easier, actually, to call a couple of people and quote them than it is to assess what the buzz is in a scientific community.

    over 1 year ago virginiahughes responded:
    virginiahughes
    that's a really good point, dan -- you never claimed to be a journalist, and nowhere on your blog does it say you follow standard journalistic practice. and, as far as i know, wired doesn't ask you to. As Vivienne says, Dan's an expert with an expert opinion.
    over 1 year ago Ed Yong responded:
    Ed Yong
    Kwinkunks calls them “informal channels”. I’m not so sure. They’re out there for people to read. Some are out there under the banner of large media organisations. While I fully respect the fact that many people (myself included) are doing this out of fun or love, that doesn’t change the fact that the moment we hit “Publish”, we expose ourselves to an audience and the responsibilities that go with that.

    Jason makes the good point that this isn’t much different to journalists quoting anonymous sources. However, I’d agree with his point that I’d at least like to know how many people we’re talking about. Even something like “I emailed a couple of colleagues” would go a long way.
    Daniel’s explanation of the conversations that led up to the post is pretty much what I thought had happened and as Viv says, many bloggers are jotting down a few scattered thoughts when they can. That’s all understandable, but my issue comes when you look at the end result.

    It isn’t journalism, it’s not claiming to be journalism, and yet... it looks really quite a lot like journalism. You have someone reporting on a study, bringing their own expertise to bear, and representing some of the views of other experts. That’s pretty much how a professional journo would do it and, to a casual reader, I’d think that the two forms would be hard to distinguish.

    So yes, I get the point that Chris, Drugmonkey and others repeatedly make that many bloggers don’t want to be journalists. I will be the last to try and foist that tragic fate upon them ;-) My question is what happens when that work ends up convergently looking like journalism? Do your goals truly matter, or do you end up automatically assuming some responsibility on account of the number of people you speak to, the place where you publish and the style you write in?

    This also ties into something I said at Scio11, that new media is in danger of repeating the same mistakes of old media, mistakes that bloggers scoff at the MSM for making. As Brian points out, “Some researchers I spoke to...” is not entirely different from the sort of “Studies show...” constructions that we all loathe in mainstream reporting. I also feeds into something Virginia said about how to label different types of media/reporting etc. when they co-exist on a site like Wired.

    I haven’t really come to any firm conclusions here, which is why this post appears on Posterous and not NERS. I’m trying to hash these issues out because I think they’ll become increasingly important as blogs become more mainstream.

    over 1 year ago Alice Bell responded:
    Alice Bell
    "as blogs become more mainstream" isn't that a key point though? Because it depends on the blog. So we might critique Daniel's blog now it's on Wired, but a general personal 'just another wordpress blog' is another issue - it's a platform, not a culture/ industry/ community (or is it in fact all these things...?)

    As a wise-ish and old-ish journalist said to me this evening, a lot of these critiques are simply complaining something isn't something else - "boo to you, as you your news story for not being a feature article", or "boo to you scientist-blogger for not being a journo" (or "boo to you journo- for not being a scientist"). My response was these roles are blurring a bit, and if actors want some of the advantages of alternative roles, they at least have to take some of the responsibilities (e.g. without necessarily wanting to act like a journalist, a scientist-blogger might take on some journo-style actions because they realise that by writing in public, some journo-skills are useful and appropriate).

    Sorry, that's not an answer, more a continuation of discussion. I don't have an answer.

    over 1 year ago Ed Yong responded:
    Ed Yong
    Your non-answer is sort of where my non-thoughts are at. Sigh. Sleepy now. Damned Nerdobacter
    over 1 year ago jgold85 (Twitter) responded:
    Jggpic_normal
    Ed (and lots of others) always remind us that we are writing for our readers (i.e. rule 1, here http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2011/jan/19/manifesto-simple-scribe-co.... In that case, if a reader is bound to interpret a given blog post as "journalism," then should we behave in accordance?

    Just another non-answer to a non-thought.

    over 1 year ago David Dobbs responded:
    David Dobbs
    Curses; my internet is down so I am limited to this iPhone.

    This is a huge and crucial set of issues. My short, iPhone-sized take: I think this reveals some limits to how hard we should press the "blogging is media" meme, or at least it's implications. Two extremely key points are emerge above: the "not all sci bloggers want to be journalists" idea from Allocthonous's excellent and important post; and the related idea that Dan is writing as authority here and so we ca accept his reports on consensus and opinion in a way we should not accept coming from a journalist; the reasons for doing so are spelled out above.

    I think it's vital that people like Dan be able to write about their areas of study, even in a venue such as Wired.com (perhaps especially in such a venue) without having to observe all the reportorial conventions of journalism. This allows him to bring these perspectives without sourcing them, and it allows some more of the experimentation in form and voice and convention that is making writing online so rich. If he misrepresents consensus, he should be challenged. But I think his experience in the field justifies allowing him some leeway and freedoms we would not allow, say, me writing on the same subject. We need be careful, in bringing integrity to web writing, to allow a variety of forms and idioms and forms of authorial authority. We needn't hold everything to the standard or the reported story.

    over 1 year ago flossymatt (Twitter) responded:
    Twitterprofilephoto_normal
    Some thoughts, or non-thoughts, as it were...

    - Is there every a situation where these sorts of "weasel words" and phrases are alright? For me, there are a select few bloggers and journalists who might be able to throw out a "studies show" or "other researchers claim" or even "it is known that" and I might go along with it because they've established a track record of knowing the field, being on top of the research and knowing which experts to look to for perspective. If someone who does things right 99% of the time want to play quick and dirty once in a while, have they earned some slack?

    - Paul points out that weasel words are often a cover for lazy reporting, but I can say from experience that sometimes they're just a way to bring down a word count and save space. One magazine I've written for runs a lot of very, very short medical news items, almost all of which contain the phrase "a new study shows." Behind that curtain of a vague phrase is a writer who read the study, talked to at least one of the researchers, and cited the study on the draft they turned in. There's also the editor who looked at the piece and also read the study to make sure the piece got the science right and the fact checker who also read the study and spoke to the researcher to check any quotes. In an ideal world, yeah, you'd make room for the citation, especially online, but if you have a good system in place to ensure accuracy and either make your readers aware of that system or at least earn their trust another way, hopefully they see "studies say" not as an attempt to get out of doing the hard work, but just short hand. Hopefully they also know that they can't apply that same mindset to all writers and all publications.

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